The Peter Problem: Wikipedia and Nerdist (or: tedder on a big podcast)

Summary

Don't want to read the whole thing? That's fine. It's aimed at techies and people with long attention span. For the "too long, didn't read version", Hardwick is upset with the Wikipedia notability guidelines and I went on his podcast. Listen or download the episode; my part begins perhaps 20 minutes in.

Getting started

First, I love Wikipedia, and I also love Chris Hardwick. I’ve written dozens of articles on Wikipedia, improved content on hundreds, and watch thousands of others for vandalism. On the Hardwick front, I’ve listened to every Nerdist podcast. I’m also a member of the Node (though I’m not creative enough to contribute much).

In February, a listing of all Nerdist podcast episodes was added to the entry. This list didn’t exist outside of Wikipedia- all of the podcasts are still online, but there’s no index on the nerdist site. There were about 60 episodes of the podcast at that point.

Anyhow, several users created and began improving the list; I made some small changes beginning in April. By the end of October, the podcast had about 120 episodes, and a user (Pnm) removed the entire list, stating "Listing every guest and every episode is excessive detail for encyclopedic coverage of the show. The episodes themselves aren't notable – they haven't generated significant secondary-source coverage like Star Trek or Seinfeld have." The list was readded a few days later by an IP address, then re-removed by Pnm. A new user (Lydia69) added the list back, and again Pnm removed it, pointing editors at the talk page.

After these "revert wars", the talk page erupted in conversation, partly spurred by Chris Hardwick himself joining the discussion. Here’s where the discussion stands. Hardwick got pissed at Orangewick and a few others.

This is a normal part of the Wikipedia process- does the information belong in an encyclopedia? Are there sources to prove it’s factual?

Quemments to Hardwick

So I reached out to Chris Hardwick in several ways. He replied to me, and after a quick conversation he invited me to come onto the podcast. It’s only a few miles from my workplace- in fact, I’d been to the E!/G4/Universal studios several times for Web Soup tapings. So, I motorcycled up there, parked, then went in and waited for maybe 25 minutes. I was 10 minutes early, but they were also running late. Finally Matt Mira walked out and grabbed me and escorted me into the radio studio.

I was nervous to face Hardwick’s rage, but also excited to be in a studio with Matt, Jonah, and Chris. Even better, it was the infamous low-tech Seacrest studio that records to a CD. I asked the crew about that and why they don’t plug in a Zoom H2. Chris really didn’t want to modify the cabling. I suspect he is not only afraid of the Seacrest wrath but also didn’t want to get burned by losing a podcast.

The Podcast itself

So. The podcast. Chris told me he wanted to do the normal podcast and then would bring me onto the microphone later in the podcast. Podcasts are weird, especially compared to being on a radio show- they start in a very casual way. In fact, I thought the three of them were simply testing the microphones until the podcast had been going for a few minutes.

It was fun to be the one-person audience to the podcast, but the topics weren’t in my nerd subject domains. I had no idea who Jenna von Oy is, had no idea what Jodie Foster’s career was like, hadn’t heard of C2E2, and... the biggest Nerdist sin of all, I’m not a Whovian (hi Sierra, that’s your job). I avoid the Harry Potter franchise, but I walked past Whimsic Alley almost every day when I worked near the E! studios.

Still, I had a good time listening and smiling. Matt had a habit of looking over to me- did he think I was going to beat him over the head with a shoe or was it nice to have feedback that something was actually funny?

Chris then introduced me. Later he said he was purposefully just using my first name because he didn’t know what I wanted done privacy-wise. I don’t really care, but that was nice. He then went through the story (above) and ranted about the fiefdoms that Wikipedians tend to build. He also mentioned that entirely incorrect information was on his biography for a long time.

While Hardwick has some points, I don’t completely agree with him. There are two fundamental problems- first, the notability barrier on Wikipedia has nothing to do with storage space. It’s a fundamental decision about what should be included. Secondly, even if the information is worthy of inclusion, it is crucial the information on Wikipedia be backed up by sources. This is helped by the podcasts all being available on the internet, though it would help if there was a centralized listing of the podcasts outside of Wikipedia.

While Hardwick mentioned Wikipedia contributor Orangemike in his description of the events, it was midway through the wiki talk that Hardwick really got ugly towards Orangemike. Obviously, the "not facebook" comment really bothered him. That’s too bad. On the other hand, he has a point- Wikipedia has a problem attracting new editors, and this is a good example of why editors can get discouraged.

I was proud that I was able to contribute some Nerdist fanboyism- specifically, I referenced Siri jokes that came out of the Nerdist Portland live podcast, teased Chris about his upcoming 40th birthday, added the "$14 inside joke" of marshmallownipples.com and a few other things. At least one thing was missed- my reference to the DSM-IV.

Analysis

Hardwick uses these two arguments in a strange manner. On one hand he complains that the information was removed about the podcast, yet complains false (and extraneous) information was on his own biography. The same knife cuts both ways; the information shouldn’t have been on his biography, but that also means the podcast article should be kept sparse.

My biggest disagreement with Hardwick is his opinion of editors who have spoken up on his podcast talk page; he’s generally very inclusive and positive, yet he railed against individual editors. It certainly didn’t help matters to see Hardwick lashing out against an editor the morning after we recorded the podcast.

In closing

Here’s the quote I heard on KPCC from John Hodgman:

Wikipedia, obviously, is one of my favorite sources for dubious scholarship. I really do love Wikipedia, but that is a world of self-appointed experts, many of whom are extremely passionate about their little individual fiefdoms there, but it is a self-appointed expertise that is defining our culture now.

How do we go forward? Well, the Nerdist community won’t get anywhere by warring on Wikipedia. It would be nice if Wikipedia policy moved towards inclusiveness of editors and information, but hopefully Hardwick and the rest of the Nerdist community can start to develop a fansite off of Wikipedia for information.

Enjoy your burrito,
-ted